NFA Radio Show Episode 4

Speaker 1:

Do you think America is a free country? Think again. Today we see radical unchecked state powers. What will become of our nation in the future? What can we do to save our homeland? What can we expect from our life in a not free America? Join host Mike Donovan, Nexus Services' CEO, and a funder of the nation's largest civil rights law firm, as he discusses our new shared life in the United States of hypocrisy. Submit your legal questions and get answers from renowned civil rights lawyer, Mario Williams. Strap in, you're about to have your eyes opened to your new reality in a not free America.

Mike Donovan:

The America that we are living in right now is not a free America. Welcome to another episode of Not Free America Radio. I am your host, Mike Donovan, Mario Williams with me. Mario, are you there?

Mario Williams:

I am. How's everybody?

Mike Donovan:

We're remote connected this week as Mario's on the left coast and I'm on the right, how ironic, but I know that, Mario, you've been following the events in Kenosha and Portland and obviously throughout the United States, as we see American cities really in a lot of turmoil, lots of violence. This stuff that we're seeing on TV is not everything that's happening. Chicago, which has been marred with violence in the streets for some time, that violence has increased dramatically. Violence in New York City has increased dramatically. People who live in Manhattan are talking about how dangerous it is. They're talking about it being more dangerous than before Rudy Giuliani came in and aggressively over prosecuted all these cases. But what people are saying is that it's more dangerous to be in American cities and that's a trend that people are sort of experiencing.

Mike Donovan:

As you know, Mario, I have a book coming out on October 27th called Not Free America. I thought I'd share a segment or a section from my book because it's timely and relevant. And it's this, it says, "Let me be clear and brutally candid with you. We may very well be the American generation that witnesses several successive catastrophes including a mass economic collapse, a banking collapse, radical increases in state power that dramatically eliminate personal liberty, forced vaccines and even civil war. If we go there, we should know that a civil war in the 2020s will look very different than the Civil War, our first internal succession induced military conflict. The next civil war will look more like terrorism in our neighborhoods, where you can't go to the store or send your kids to school without knowing that they may not come back. We are talking about America under siege and at war in every community at varying levels."

Mike Donovan:

"There will be wars focused on race and class and not only a war that puts our liberty to the test, but a war that could place liberty across our nation and indeed the globe in crisis. Think about it. This great nation began as 13 little colonies. It isn't hard to imagine that the radical little colonies that inspired freedom around the world may just as easily extinguish that flame by not being good stewards of our founder's promise. We are quite simply living in a time of culmination. A time where we realized the promise of America or we'd be crushed under the weight of the hypocrisy, of the promise in practice. It's a choice. And that choice is ours."

Mike Donovan:

Mario, 55% of the American people say that relations between white people and Black people are at an all time low. They call them bad. What do you make of this? How far are we gone? And how much further can we go before we can't turn back?

Mario Williams:

Well, I was looking at this Gallup poll and it's a little bit deceptive. They're combining two statistics as compared to one statistics and actually 59% say they believe that the issue and the relations would actually improve this year over the next year. What you really looking at is just a sign of the times. You have a situation that really is perceived as a white/Black issue with police officers and I think the poll is basically gauging people's feelings based on that issue.

Mike Donovan:

Don't you think that it's a lot to do with what they're seeing in the media? I think that a lot of times polls parrot what people are seeing. I think if I watch CNN, I see a white versus Black issue. I don't see a police versus non police issue. In other words, I don't see a police versus free person issue. I see a police versus communities of color. And we don't see all of the cases of infringed upon rights of poor white people as well. We have an issue of police misconduct in this country. It is racial-

Mario Williams:

That's right.

Mike Donovan:

But it isn't just racial-

Mario Williams:

Right [crosstalk 00:05:07]-

Mike Donovan:

I think that's the problem.

Mario Williams:

This poll is absolutely parroting that. It's saying, "Hey, look..." Because if you look at the protesters, you have a ton of white protesters about-

Mike Donovan:

That's right, more, many more.

Mario Williams:

That's right about what is perceived to be a Black issue.

Mike Donovan:

That's right.

Mario Williams:

These people are responding to a poll saying, "Hey look, Black/white relations might be sour right now because we're talking about a Black/white issue with cops." White cops, Black victims.

Mike Donovan:

The problem with a poll like this is that the polls sometimes become elements of shaping society's feelings about a certain issue and the old traditional push poll.

Mario Williams:

That's right.

Mike Donovan:

But sometimes these kinds of polls, we're not saying this isn't something that says, "Hey, who do you want to vote for, for president?" This is how do you feel about how people feel? And so I think that you end up promulgating a narrative that is destructive. I agree with you.

Mario Williams:

That's right.

Mike Donovan:

I think that the narrative of this being a white versus Black issue is destructive, but I also think that's kind of, you and I may disagree on the level of cognizance of what the police state is doing in this country, but I think that they're building those divisions and they're using those divisions to maintain their power and control because the police state in the United States has never been more at risk of losing its power and control, which is probably appropriate because it's never been more aggressive at flexing that power and control. The more you flex power, the more you put it at risk. The more likely someone's going to call you or check you on your bad behavior. That's what's happening in this country now. And I really believe that this isn't as much a racial issue as people in the police state, including the police unions would want to make it a racial issue. Because if it's a racial issue, then the police aren't held accountable for the crimes that they're committing because it's a general reflection on society. I think this kind of poll puts us at risk of letting the people who are responsible for this crisis off the hook. And those people are people who lead police agencies and prosecutors offices across this country.

Mario Williams:

I agree with that, Mike, because what's going on here is you're manufacturing a false narrative. You're trying to make something into a race war when really what we're talking about is a long historical abuse of authority by law enforcement against a targeted population and that [crosstalk 00:07:34]-

Mike Donovan:

[crosstalk 00:07:34] targeted is poor, right? Isn't it poor? Isn't it poverty?

Mario Williams:

Well, that's one aspect of it, but it's unmistakably people of color also.

Mike Donovan:

Sure.

Mario Williams:

There's no doubt about that.

Mike Donovan:

And Hispanic people and we can go into the history books and pull to the Chinese exclusion cases, as you may remember from law school, Mr. Williams, and the ridiculousness of how Chinese people were treated at a certain point in time in our history. I think that we've seen police power be focused on communities specifically in different times in the United States. I think we've seen police powers focused in African American communities, especially in the last a hundred years in a really aggressive way and particularly in the last 60-70 years in an incredibly aggressive way. But I do think that you don't have a friend in the police state unless you are serving the police state's interest. And the police state's interest is power. And the police state is small, but in order to have absolute power and absolute control, it has to maintain that power by either dividing people or by promulgating fear. And promulgating fear doesn't work when people stand up to you, when they start burning your precincts down, for example.

Mike Donovan:

You have to divide people and I'm afraid that this divide and conquer is what is leading us to more violence. I think that there will be more violence in the streets as we see police and Mario, really want your opinion on this. It almost looks as if the police have allies in these militia groups and in doing some of the things that these police agencies have done, like the Kenosha police, for example, handing out bottled water to militia groups, who one of the members later ended up being involved in a homicide. Giving the kid water then later walked by them, right after killing two people, wounding another. That kind of dispersate treatment, the difference that the protesters would receive from the police and the treatment that Kyle Rittenhouse and the militia members, do you think that that kind of dispersate treatment is part of what is leading to this increased level of tension in the streets? Do you think the police are partly responsible for that?

Mario Williams:

Absolutely. Not partly, I think they're almost a hundred percent responsible for exactly what's going on in the streets because they're the people that are shooting African Americans for no justifiable reason. And here's the thing, Mike, when you see something like that, when you see giving out water, handshaking, fist bumping, all this kind of stuff, I go back to what we talked about on the last show. If you're a Black person or you're a person of color, you're just going to ask you, would this be the way you're treated? If I'm coming out on the street armed with AR-15 rifles or whatever it is that they have talking about my second amendment right, would I be able to laugh and joke with law enforcement while all this ruckus and so-called chaos is going on? Would I be given water bottles and a thumbs up and saying, "Hey, do your thing." It's not happening.

Mike Donovan:

No, of course not.

Mario Williams:

When people see that, they say, "Okay, this is a racial difference. You are biased. You are prejudiced. You are potentially racist or if not, absolutely racist." And as proof positive of that, why don't we ever not one time see you acting that way with a group of Black people or people of color that are armed in the same way and actually in the same way this group of people are acting?

Mike Donovan:

Well, you're exactly right. But I think that for me as a white person, growing up as a white kid, you couldn't have Black friends and not understand that Black people and white people are treated differently. I grew up in a pretty conservative country area. I didn't even know any African American people until I was a teenager, but it didn't take me long to realize that when I did have Black friends, that they were treated differently when they went to the store than I was, when they went to an event or the fair or whatever than I, that they were treated differently. They were looked at differently. They were followed around. It's very, very clear. I don't think you can... Open your eyes, folks. That's obvious.

Mike Donovan:

I think it's important to understand that while racial bias, which is real in this country, is what leads, I think, to a particular aggregation of this problem in the African American community. But I want to be clear to everybody so that everybody understands that this is not about racism for the police state in the United States. Racial bias may play a role in what we see happening today, but understand that there's a hubris and an arrogance from police and the police state in this country that supersedes any kind of bias. It supersedes a racial bias. It supersedes a class bias. It is the thing that leads people to say blue lives matter and mean it as if blue lives mean something. It's a job. It's a job. You get paid to do it. And you know something, jobs can be honorable. In fact, I think all jobs are honorable and some jobs are more honorable than others. And I love the fact that police officers get up every day to keep us safe and I honor that, but it's a job and it's one they chose to do. It's not a race. It isn't a color of your skin. It isn't how you were born. It isn't the country you were born in it. It isn't the fact that you were born into abject poverty and didn't have opportunity like someone living in Appalachia, for example, or perhaps in Ward 8 in DC.

Mike Donovan:

I think that people, Mario, just need to take a step back and understand that this is about power and control. And the thing that we all need to understand is that white people, Black people, brown people, poor people, middle-class people, if you are not one of the elites controlling this country, then the police state could turn against you very easily. They very easily could. And if you don't believe that, look what happened when the coronavirus crisis hit and look what happened when all those democratic governors shut their states down. How many states infringed on the second amendment rights of militia members? I know of at least three. How many states shut down free travel between the states? We know that if you aren't one of the governing elites in this country, that the police state could turn against you, too, and you should fight against it now while you still can.

Mario Williams:

Let me say something about a blue lives matter.

Mike Donovan:

Please.

Mario Williams:

If you do any kind of work or you have any kind of law enforcement or military in your family, and you hear this phrase, blue lives matter, first of all, it's absolutely [inaudible 00:15:04] and absolutely a ridiculous response when discussing, for example, shooting an unarmed man seven times in the back and then in response to somebody saying, "Black lives matter," you say, "Blue lives matter." That's absolutely absurd and it's ridiculous, but I'm going to tell the public what they're talking about just in case you're not familiar with police culture. What law enforcement does is they build up this culture of saying, "Hey, the number one goal for us every day is to go home and return safe to our family. If it's a choice between me being able to go home to my family and you not being able to go home to your family because I believe that you pose a threat to me, then I'm okay in what I'm doing to you, whether that be severely hurting you or possibly killing you." And then you'll hear on the blog sites and the threads, "Well, thank God he made it home safe."

Mario Williams:

This guy, when you say blue lives matters in the context of that shooting being shot seven times in the back, the thought process behind that is, "Well, thank God it's either him or me." And so I survived, I went home safe to my family. That's what I need to do every day and that's what my focus is. Now, that doesn't take into account the fact that you just violated every training manual known to mankind in the United States of America that governs police conduct.

Mike Donovan:

That's right.

Mario Williams:

It doesn't take into account anything other than you being able at the last second to throw up some craziness about I thought he had a knife or I thought he had a gun when there's no objective evidence to do that. When I hear blue lives matter in a context such as someone getting shot like this man got shot seven times in the back. It's pathetic, actually. It's absolutely pathetic. And I absolutely believe in police safety, but not to that degree and not using blue lives matter in that context.

Mike Donovan:

I don't really know what a blue life is. I thought it was a Smurf thing. You know the cartoons when I was a kid, I used to watch Smurfs, the little blue people. I don't know what blue lives matter is because blue lives, this is not a race. This is a job. This is a job. Like lawyers lives matter, right? Like doctors lives matter? I guess. But this is stupid. And what it is is it's a response and it's a response to something that is being mocked. See, that's what it is. It isn't just offensive and it isn't just untrue, it's a mockery. That's what it is. And it should offend you because that's what it's designed to do. Folks, we're going to take a few minutes. We'll be right back. Thanks for joining us.

Mike Donovan:

Welcome back to Not Free America Radio. Mike Donovan here. Mario Williams with me. Mario, I got a note from a listener and he says, this is Jake. Jake says, "You guys are really anti-police. You hate the police. You suck." Well Jake and I'll take this Mario. You can respond to Jake if you'd like. Jake, I don't hate the police. In fact, I don't hate very many people at all. The only people I truly hate are people who use power and control that they have to harm other people, but what I do hate as an abstract is hypocrisy. I hate hypocrisy. You know that coach at Penn State that molested those children in the locker room. That's a horrible thing because he put himself in a position of trust and then he violated that trust and everybody in this country, everybody in the world was right to be angry at him and disgusted by him because of what he did. When a teacher molests a child, it's disgusting because the teacher is placed in a position of power and control.

Mike Donovan:

Likewise, when a police officer violates the civil liberties of any citizen, it is not the police officer I hate, it is the hypocrisy and not hypocrisy flows deeper than that one officer because so many officers simply refuse to tell. They refuse to speak up because they don't want to be the troublemaker. Well, you know what, God put troublemakers on the earth to create change and we need change in the police state in this country. It's not about hating police, folks. I love the police. I just wish they would live up to their oath and when they do, I celebrate it and when they don't, well, we Sue them. Right Mario? That's what we do. Anyway, that's Jake. Jake thinks we hate the police, Mario. What do you think?

Mario Williams:

What I'll tell Jake is that similar to what you say, I don't hate anybody, but I do hate inhumane treatment based on the color of people's skin.

Mike Donovan:

That's right.

Mario Williams:

I want to know Jake's opinion instead of writing and talking about we're anti cops and we suck. I want to know Jake's opinion on what's going on with people being shot because of the color of their skin and treated differently throughout the US history and more currently, being caught on video tape. This is what I'm going to say to Jake. See, Jake probably defines the person who shot seven times in the back, this man, as... He might even say does a bad cop, who knows? He might say, he's a good cop, but let's just say he said he's a bad cop. What I want our listeners to do is try to expand their definition of a bad cop. Maybe if I said, hey, the only time I would label somebody a bad cop is if I catch on video something crazy, like the stuff that's been happening here. If I expand that definition to cover all law enforcement who could see something that happened, like shooting someone seven times in the back and not be caught on video and they either one, don't say one word about it or two help write a phony police report to cover it up, then the definition of bad cop expands to about 90% of law enforcement. That's a problem. I want Jake... I wish we had a call man because I would love for Jake to call in and talk about that issue.

Mike Donovan:

That's right. Well, maybe we'll have Jake on. I've got his contact information, maybe we'll invite him on. I will say this about Jake though. If Jake ever finds himself the victim of police brutality or police misconduct, you can call me Jake. You got our email obviously. You can reach out to me because I'll be there for you because I'll be there for anybody. Anybody who's terrorized by the police state in this country and folks, since 1972 we have had a radical and massive increase in incarceration in this country and I get tired of people turning their back at this idea as if it's not a big deal. In 1972, on average, we had 36,000 people in jail on a daily basis. On average and that's a lot. Now today it's millions. We incarcerate more people per capita in the United States of America than China does, than Russia does, than North Korea does, than Iran does.

Mike Donovan:

We have nothing to be proud of here in our criminal justice system. Nothing to be proud of when it comes to numbers. 76% of the people who go into the jail or prison system within two years re-offend. If planes fell out of the sky 78% of the time, would you ever fly? If 78% of the time you went on the road you were to crash your car, would you ever get on the road? Only in the government, only in the police state, only in the industry of mass incarceration, does it make any sense to do something over and over again when you fail, but you know what? Failure's important because you need repeat customers. That's what we have here. We have a system that has grown so far out of control, millions of people incarcerated. You want to be afraid of something, other than 2020 and all the craziness that's going on right now, you want to be afraid of something? Be afraid of the idea of prisoners in this country radicalizing.

Mike Donovan:

Event 1% of our prisoners in this country radicalized and they take over our whole state. I'm telling you we incarcerate way too many people. To Mario's point, it is the culture that covers up this type of behavior that leads to this kind of result, but you don't have to believe the way I feel. I don't have to convince you. See here's the beauty of it. I don't have to convince you that I'm right. You could think I'm a liberal loon and that I'm wrong. It doesn't matter. The numbers, Mario, are the numbers. The simple fact is we incarcerate more people than anyone else in the world. The simple fact is we incarcerate millions of people per day and the simple fact is we can't afford it. The simple fact is we are breaking communities down and we're building violence in our streets because of the desperate treatment that people of color receive, that poor people receive, that people who don't matter receive and the breaking point, I think we're fast approaching. I think you're right. We have to expand the definition of bad cop, but I think it's important to understand that it's also very, very difficult to be a good cop. Don't you think? You've represented some good cops, Mario. How hard is it to be a good cop and police, in America, police in 2020, in this time period?

Mario Williams:

That's a great question because we sued Atlanta police department on behalf of what started off as one law enforcement officer, but then it ended up being a class action because what did we find? APDs ranked, lieutenant, captain, major and up and-

Mike Donovan:

Like the military.

Mario Williams:

Yeah, six zones. If you're a lieutenant and up, you can't even apply for the position. There's no application process. I even had a deputy major, who's now a chief of police in a different prominent city say, the whole process was a joke. They call it friends and family. It's-

Mike Donovan:

This is coming from lieutenant to captain is that what-

Mario Williams:

Lieutenant, captain, major.

Mike Donovan:

Oh, got it. Lieutenant, captain, major.

Mario Williams:

Yeah. Then you go deputy major and all up to Chief. Once you get to lieutenant, they had it to where... They call it the friends and family program, which has killed morale for everybody.

Mike Donovan:

The friends and family?

Mario Williams:

Yeah, because you couldn't apply for the captain position or the major position or any other position above. People were testifying that they randomly were just told, you're up next, you got this spot.

Mike Donovan:

You couldn't apply?

Mario Williams:

No. You can't even apply for it. You couldn't apply for... Then the whole system was based on race.

Mike Donovan:

Explain that to us please.

Mario Williams:

I'm going to explain this to you. The whole system was based on if you're a lieutenant and you're zone one, there's six zones. Each zone has a lieutenant, captain, major. Let's say you live in zone one and you worked there for 15 years and you're black and you want to go to the next step, which is captain. Well, if the captain in your zone is white, then you can't get that position no matter how good you are and no matter who is applying or not applying because you can't apply because there's no application process. Everything is black, white, black, white, in these six zones, so you're automatically excluded out of three positions because of your color.

Mike Donovan:

They're never going to replace the white guy with a black guy?

Mario Williams:

No and vice versa. The white guy doesn't get the position because a black person is in it, so then my natural question is, well, what about our Latino brothers? What about-

Mike Donovan:

How many latino captains are there?

Mario Williams:

That's right. What about our Asian brothers and sisters? The response to that was one of the most deplorable things I've ever heard, especially in 2017, 18, 19 and 20 was just, hey, that's really not the demographic of Atlanta.

Mike Donovan:

First of all, I don't think that's true.

Mario Williams:

Imagine that now. Imagine if you become Lieutenant and you immediately, you have to look at the race of the captain and then you have to say, okay, my competition is not... If I'm black, I say my competition is not white people. Any other race, I just have to compete against other black people for the zones that have a black person in the place that I want to go.

Mike Donovan:

That's right. You just touched on something. This story-

Mario Williams:

That's called killing morale.

Mike Donovan:

This story is exactly what... It exemplifies this institutional racism, right? Yeah. We don't have a race problem in this country. Well, look at this case. It sounds like someone thought this was fair. I don't know why they would think that, but it sounds like someone really put some... We'll make sure we don't replace this guy. It almost sounds like someone thought this was a good idea.

Mario Williams:

Well, let me tell you about that. That's what's interesting. This is what I tried to explain to the chief of police who supported this. I said, hey, look man. Really what you're doing is exactly what people of color fought against. What you're doing is you're saying I'm black, I'm in a zone, I want to be captain, the captain is white, so you're x-ing me out of that position completely because of the color of my skin. That can't be your end goal and if you're doing it in three zones out of six, you're killing my chance at mobility by 50% just based on me being black.

Mike Donovan:

That's right. You're right to say it's a morale killer, but it's also abjectly racist at it's core because you're literally foreclosing an opportunity based on a person's race.

Mario Williams:

Well, the supreme court put it the best. The supreme court said the easiest way to stop racism is to stop discriminating on race, but it's the hardest thing in the world for this country to do because it's been so embedded in our culture and our mindset.

Mike Donovan:

Well, I think the biggest problem is that when we talk about racism in this country, people get the idea that we're talking about a certain type of people. We have this community division happening right now and you have a lot of it's media driven, a lot of it's politician driven, but at the end of the day this kind of case that you're talking about in Atlanta, shows that kind of institutional racism. This is not a problem of the American people being just ignorantly racist. This is a problem with our bureaucratic systems being inherently racist. The difference is you can educate people, but you can't educate a bureaucracy. A bureaucracy only grows, mission creeps, gets bigger, gets more entrenched. Bureaucracies aren't agile and bureaucracies are what lead us to something like, I don't know, a crazy idea that we would say, hey, if you have a black captain, you can have a white one and if you have a white captain, you can't have a black one and someone probably thought that was actually a good idea because the bureaucratic racism was so bad that it led to people making decisions that defy logic and common sense.

Mike Donovan:

Any of us listening to this program right now would objectively listen to what Mario just talked about in Atlanta and say, that's ridiculous, that's racist. We all understand that, but in a bureaucratic system, in a city, in a large city, that's allowed to continue because racism isn't just what people feel amongst one another. It is institutionalized in that it's through our bureaucratic systems. People, you need to understand that also is many democrat or liberal based systems. Our welfare system is very racist. Our criminal justice system is very racist and it is in effect these things because I think the bureaucracy doesn't care about people. The bureaucracy cares about the majority, the people that are in control. That's what the bureaucracy cares about because that's what the bureaucracy serves. Speaking of bureaucracies Mario, the president's talking about an election day vaccine. Did you see this?

Mario Williams:

Yeah, I did.

Mike Donovan:

The CDC put out an alert-

Mario Williams:

It's actually cruel to be doing that to people.

Mike Donovan:

It is cruel, unless of course he delivers. I mean, that would be crazy. A November one vaccine delivery to states across the country. The CDC director said he wanted states to relax their policies and procedures around setting up these distribution centers so that the vaccines can be distributed quickly. Well, what do you think that means, shortcutting the distribution? I have concerns about the vaccine. My concerns are escalated when I hear things like, hey, let's cut some corners on making sure the stuff's safe.

Mario Williams:

Yeah. Let's relax the oversight.

Mike Donovan:

It was a good idea. Right?

Mario Williams:

When you start hearing people talk about relaxing oversight, not having all the mechanisms in place because we need to really get this out, mindful, this is coming from the same guy, same president, be very respectful, he is the president. It's coming from the president who claimed that this was not a big deal. That this was not a big deal. That we needed to open up the country, but now suddenly he wants to cut corners, reduce oversight and rush a vaccine out by the time that we have to vote for him or not vote for him. It's actually an insult to everybody's intelligence.

Mike Donovan:

I think this guy is. He's just very political, right? He's going to say whatever. I don't put a lot of stock in what he says, but this is a directive that came from the CDC director. My concern is that may carry a little more weight. What I'm worried about and you know Mario, that I'm concerned about being forced for me or my kids to have to get a vaccine that is untested, that we don't know what the longterm results are or the longterm effects are at all. We know that these vaccines are being rushed every step of the way. Any mention of these concerns makes you an anti-vaxxer, which I am not, as I've said before, but I have concerns about a vaccine that's raced to market. Concerns that are only increased by rhetoric from the Centers for Disease Control, encouraging States in this country to lack standards for distribution of vaccines, that as I understand, have to be stored in specific temperatures to remain safe. Folks, we'll be right back. Stay with us. Thanks.

Mike Donovan:

Welcome back to Not Free America Radio. Mike Donovan here, Mario Williams with me. Notforamerica.com folks, go to the website. By the way, buy my book because it's really good and you will really enjoy it. And if you like listening to this show, you'll really like the book. It's like hundreds of pages of this.

Mike Donovan:

So if you like this, you'll love the book. Go buy the book, notfreeamerica.com. Also while you're there, leave a message for us. Let us know if you have a question for myself or Mario. Jake did. He came and blasted us. You can too.

Mike Donovan:

Let us know that you love us, let us know that you hate us, let us know that you love the police and you think we're horrible, or you despise hypocrisy and think we're great. Whatever. You have a legal question? Go let us know.

Mike Donovan:

We will talk about it. We're here to serve you because it's 2020. It's like the end of the world. We all are in this together. Like this vaccine thing, Mario, getting back to this vaccine thing. I have taken action to file legal action in the Commonwealth of Virginia to prevent me from being forced to take a vaccine again. Not because I'm an anti-vaxxer, but because I think that common sense and medical decisions should be appreciated and decisions about medical care should be left up to the individual.

Mike Donovan:

And certainly I do not believe that the government should be able to plunge an experimental vaccine into my arm. I just don't think it should be okay. These conversations about regional distribution centers and military dish delivery systems of these vaccines sounds very scary. Please tell me I shouldn't be afraid of this, Mario.

Mario Williams:

Yeah. We talked about this last week. I think the listeners and stuff need to be very aware of the difference between wearing a mask, social distancing six feet, and then agreeing to saying or permitting the government to violate your physical integrity by injecting anything inside your body.

Mario Williams:

That is a distinct difference. When you agree to that, you're saying that it's constitutionally permissible, and that decision will last and affect generations to come.

Mario Williams:

The listener needs to go ahead and think to themselves, "Okay, what's really going on here? Let me really look at these numbers. Let me see what the death rate is. Let me see what the death toll is. Are the numbers going down? What's going on?"

Mario Williams:

Because there has to be a threshold at some point where someone's going to say, "Hey, look, that's just not sufficient enough for the government to say that it's constitutionally permissible to inject something in my body."

Mario Williams:

Look, I went to Africa. I got so many vaccines, man, I thought I was going to pass out. I'm not some guy that's-

Mike Donovan:

You're not an anti-vaxxer.

Mario Williams:

No, no. I had a big yellow book. I got so many vaccines, man, I started getting scared myself. But that's different because that's voluntary.

Mike Donovan:

That's right. You chose that.

Mario Williams:

I chose that because I was going over here. I'm thinking, "I don't want to catch anything. I want to do everything I can to inoculate myself." What we're talking about is mandatory government intervention, mandatory government gets to violate your physical integrity. That's way different.

Mike Donovan:

It's way different. I was watching CNN last week and they were doing a story on the Russian vaccine, which has been made available to teachers in Russia. They had teased a story about these Russian teachers that were refusing to take Putin's vaccine.

Mike Donovan:

And so they came back on and, again, CNN is demonstrating such hypocrisy and such ridiculousness. It's pathetic, but they came on and they were doing a story about anti-vaxxers and how ridiculous this narrative of not trusting medical science is.

Mike Donovan:

The very next story was the bravery of these teachers who are refusing to take Putin's vaccine. What in the world is the difference? You think Putin's dishonest and you don't trust the Russian Federation's government? Good! Then that makes you an intelligent person. Do you trust ours? Too bad, that makes you an unintelligent person. Just open your eyes.

Mike Donovan:

Okay. And let me be very, very honest and very, very direct. If you are a Trump supporter, then you believe the Democrats in this country orchestrated a veritable coup d'etat by attempting to impeach your president on bogus grounds. I know many, many Republicans who believe that. "A conspiracy," they were using words like coup.

Mike Donovan:

If you're a Democrat, you believe ... Many of my democratic friends believe that the president of the United States is a totalitarian dictator, who is a threat to the very sanctity of democracy in this country. If you believe that about the other side, why on earth don't you have healthy skepticism when your government says, "Hey, plunge this into your arm and trust us. We sped it up and we cut corners, but we got you. It's okay." Why is it that I'm a crazy person because I don't want some experimental thing thrust into my arm first?

Mike Donovan:

There are plenty of people crazy enough to do that. Let them do it. Get away from me with your needle and your forced control and your desire to tell me how to live my life, and what kind of medical care to take when you don't even know. This thing doesn't even exist yet. We're having an argument about whether someone should take something that doesn't exist.

Mike Donovan:

We have the director of public health in Virginia saying you have to take something that doesn't exist. It's all based ... And you alluded to it, Mario, on numbers, that we have to take a step back and ask, "What do these numbers really mean?" Senator Joni Ernst, I actually like her. I'm a progressive and I don't really like her politics, but she's spunky and kind of Sarah Palin-esque and I kind of like that.

Mike Donovan:

She was out on the campaign trail and she was talking to a voter and she said, "Look, I am concerned about inflation of the COVID numbers." She's been called QAnon. She's been called crazy, now she's going to lose her election.

Mike Donovan:

Why? Because she had the audacity to answer a question from a voter honestly, by saying, "You know what? I am concerned about the COVID deaths numbers." Based on CDC reporting, that there are a lot of multiple causes of death that aren't COVID-specific.

Mike Donovan:

She said that to a voter who had asked the question and she has been tormented, labeled hard and feathered this sort of loon. Isn't that unreasonable? Isn't it unreasonable to attack? It's almost like it's the thought police. You can't think it, you can't speak it. You can't ask a question. You're a crazy person.

Mike Donovan:

If you have a question about a vaccine and whether a vaccine is safe, you're a crazy person. If you have a question about whether the death rates are correct or whether there's any inflation or why the cause of death, whether COVID was a prevailing cause. You ask any of those questions, Mario, and you're a crazy person. Isn't that a sign that there's a narrative? Something else is at play here. Why else would there be such propaganda?

Mario Williams:

Here's my answer to that, Mike. We are getting inaccurate numbers. Now that doesn't necessarily mean someone's given us inaccurate numbers on purpose, but we just don't know enough about the virus. Month to month, day to day, it keeps switching. First we have this certain death toll, raw numbers and percentage wise. And now we're being told that the percentage of 6% or 5% of those deaths actually really can't be attributed to COVID. That's not because anybody's intentionally lying.

Mario Williams:

It's because we're growing in our knowledge of the virus. We are getting inaccurate numbers, there's no doubt about that. People need to accept that as a reality. The issue is, at what point do these numbers and what we do have justify curbing constitutional rights?

Mario Williams:

I know in the legal community, everybody's concerned about that because lawyers are looking at duplicating or replicating an outcome a thousand or a hundred thousand times down road. And what does that really mean longterm for anybody? To have that concern and to voice that concern in an articulated and an intelligible manner, and then be accused of not caring about people dying or you really don't really care, you're selfish. It's misplaced.

Mike Donovan:

Look, I've worked with a lot of people who come out of jail and prison and committed a lot of crimes, a lot of mistakes. I knew a woman who was a hospital administrator before she'd gotten in trouble. She had gotten into some trouble with drugs, and she got ahead of herself and she could never get out from under it. As a hospital administrator, she committed millions of dollars in fraud.

Mike Donovan:

That happens. It happens. It's not frequent, but it's frequent enough that our department of justice in the United States has a whole division that goes after these folks. Here's my concern. Medicare pays additional monies to hospitals for COVID related deaths. That's a fact.

Mike Donovan:

Now, I'm supposed to believe that all of human immorality will be suspended in honor and deference to the COVID-19 crisis. We can't even ask if there's fraud without being called a loon.

Mike Donovan:

But Mario, there's always fraud. They had the PPP and this guy in Florida went out and bought a Lamborghini with his PPP money. And he got PBP money based on a company that didn't even exist, and he had no employees. Like this is America, right? This is America. This is what America does!

Mario Williams:

It's the way of the world.

Mike Donovan:

It's the way of the world.

Mario Williams:

It's the unfortunate reality of doing business in the world that we know.

Mike Donovan:

But if the government's going to say to hospitals, "We're going to give you more money for a COVID-19 death report." Do you not expect ... I mean, again, here I am. I'm being a lunatic, but isn't it just common sense to expect that we might see numbers that are elevated so that hospital administrators can pad their pockets? How many hospital administrators have been prosecuted for the opiate crisis?

Mario Williams:

Look at Native American reservations and family separation.

Mike Donovan:

Right.

Mario Williams:

You get more money. Government agencies get more money for each Native American child, and then suddenly we see a correlation and how many children are separated completely on conditions and terms that would never happen to non-Native American families.

Mike Donovan:

That's right.

Mario Williams:

This stuff happens. Anytime you have money at play with conditions that need to be met in order to get certain monies, you're always going to have a scammer out there.

Mike Donovan:

We just can't make it not okay to ask questions. I think that's one of the most dangerous things about what we've got going on in this country right now is that you can't ask questions. If you ask questions, you are relegated to a second class citizen or a lower person.

Mike Donovan:

You're not worth listening to, you need to be canceled. This is insane. These are healthy questions to ask. These aren't lunatic conspiracy theories. These are healthy questions. Let's make sure we audit these hospitals to make sure that we don't have fraud happening against our Medicare system. That's what we do anyway!

Mario Williams:

Absolutely.

Mike Donovan:

Why is it a bad thing to ask that question?

Mario Williams:

That's right. Whistleblower! Qui tam.

Mike Donovan:

Yeah! Qui tam. Where are our Qui tammers?

Mario Williams:

All of this is based on undercover people being in government operations, stealing money from the government.

Mike Donovan:

That's right. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there would be a private right of action on a Qui tam for a hospital employee who knew that this was happening, right?

Mario Williams:

Right.

Mike Donovan:

Potentially.

Mario Williams:

It's probably happening right now. Somebody's probably reported it.

Mike Donovan:

All right. Listen up my wonderful listeners, our wonderful, wonderful family of listeners. If you know someone who works in a hospital who has information related to fudging numbers to get additional funding, then there is a little thing called Qui tam.

Mike Donovan:

You can go to notfreeamerica.com and send us a message. We'll have an attorney call you and listen to what you have to say and find out if your information might be helpful and if there might be a vehicle for you to report that information.

Mike Donovan:

But you know, folks, if there's no fraud, there's no fraud. But you shouldn't be sort of yelled at for asking the question. It's the same thing with voter fraud, right? There was a huge case of voter fraud in North Carolina that was a Republican case. And then there was a case of voter fraud in Harrisonburg, Virginia, close to where I live that was a democratic case.

Mike Donovan:

Here's the thing, guys. There's fraud everywhere! Is there voter fraud? Of course there's voter fraud! There's check fraud. There's vehicle fraud. There's every kind of fraud. Fraud happens everywhere. Is it a systemic problem that should lead us to canceling out hundreds of thousands of people's votes? No, that's stupid.

Mike Donovan:

But don't you think sometimes when we say, "Hey, you can't ask that question." We do it with voter fraud. We do it with hospital fraud. We do it with police. Unless there's a video, "Don't question the police."

Mike Donovan:

But it's really about just making sure that it's again, control. Isn't it? We want to control what you think. We want to control what you say. We want to control what you do, because that way we stay in power. And the 'we' is the elites that control this country and the police state is at the helm of that.

Mike Donovan:

The police unions that fuel that police state, and the politicians that sat at the elite of this government and they sat at the elite of this government on both sides. It simply doesn't matter. Because at the end of the day, people who have things want to keep them.

Mike Donovan:

A small, small number of people have the most things in this country, and they are going to do whatever they have to do to keep those things. If there is a war in the United States of America in 2020 or beyond, if there is a civil war to be had in this country ... And I hope there isn't, I hope there's a way out. And by the way, I write about it in my book, Not Free America, which you can get notfreeamerica.com, by the way. I write extensively about it.

Mike Donovan:

I think there's a way out. But if there isn't a way out, if there is a war in our future and we are destined to fight it in this generation, it will be a war between those who have the power and those of us who don't. It will look much, much more like the French Revolution than the Civil War that we saw in our country's history.

Mike Donovan:

Mario, we only have a couple of minutes, but I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that we've got some presidential and a vice presidential debate coming up. What do you think? Give me your 30 second, 45 second sneak peek of how the Biden/Trump debate will go. What's your prediction? Who will win?

Mario Williams:

I don't know about who's going to win that one. I just know we're just going to get more reality TV.

Mike Donovan:

I'm honestly kind of excited.

Mario Williams:

That's what we've gotten for the whole Trump administration. I don't see any reason why it would be any different.

Mike Donovan:

It's sad. I'm not a Trump fan. Everybody knows that. I think everybody knows that. In fact, I [inaudible 00:16:29] the guy and I think he's a racist and he disgusts me. Let's just be very clear.

Mike Donovan:

But my God, I enjoy his debates. I enjoy his debates! They're the most fun political debates I've ever seen. Little hands Marco, lying Ted ... Do you remember in the debate when Donald Trump actually suggested that Ted Cruz's father may have been involved in the assassination of John F.K.?

Mario Williams:

Yeah.

Mike Donovan:

Jesus!

Mario Williams:

The guy, he said, "I like my heroes not captured." When he said that about McCain, I can't remember the exact quote right off the top of my head, but it was basically, "I'd rather my heroes not be captured."

Mike Donovan:

I prefer my heroes not captured.

Mario Williams:

Yeah. He said that about McCain. I just said, man ...

Mike Donovan:

I have to tell you, Sarah Sanders wrote a book. I will leave us with this. Sarah Sanders wrote a book. And she said that when she went to Singapore and she met Kim Jong Un or whatever his name is, she was flying back.

Mike Donovan:

He had winked at her and the president said, "Hey, Sarah, we're going to send you back to North Korea to take one for the team." That's our president, folks. Thank you for joining us, Not Free America. Notfreeamerica.com, go to the website, buy the book. Thank you so much, Mario. Have a wonderful week. We'll see you next week, folks.

Mario Williams:

Everybody, have a great week!